Curse

Narutoscryed · Nov 18, 2006, 09:54 PM // 21:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sid Soggybottom

I guess it must be hard to see where I quoted Lacasner in my post.

And since you're all about valid and relevant arguments and including quotes, here's some that I've seen from you:

Oh yes, Naratu, your posts just scream relevancy and validity. I just can't understand why ANET won't respond....

hey.. your right.. i am all about them... THANKS!!!!!

SirErnieMacGloop · Nov 18, 2006, 11:01 PM // 23:01

Ok, I took the time to go over from page 1 and count (as of post #482, I wish this had been a Poll

).

4 categories:
Bored
Not Yet Bored
Not Bored
Not Sure (about 40% leaned towards not bored, 15% leaned towards bored, 45% single comment or post not directly related to thread)
under Not Sure it was really hard to tell if someone was bored or not, some appeared just to discuss/argue a single point made in another post, I really wished people had clearly stated their opinion.

So here are the results:
Bored: 70
Not Yet Bored: 5
Not Bored: 25
Not Sure: 76

Most posts:
Sid Soggybottom: 32
WasAGuest: 30
Narutoscryed: 27
lacasner: 26
Sidra: 15
birfoot: 14
Pudin Tame: 14
Trvth Jvstice: 13

Discuss?
Nicely, please.

WasAGuest · Nov 18, 2006, 11:19 PM // 23:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by SirErnieMacGloop

WasAGuest: 30

30? sweet... I'm usually long winded too. hehe

MacGloop (still the best name yet); thanks for taking the time to do all that. Must have taken some time. Awesome work.

There's "bored" posts all over the place these days, and even slight references to people being bored within other posts (noted, some are still enjoying as well). Found one over at GWOnline, where the flamers and "gotta raise my post counters" seemed to have stayed away from so far. There's some actually conversations taking place with good points on each side.

Those with accounts there might be interested in taking a look: here

So, I'm at 31 now. /flex -- think of all the actual gaming I could have done instead of this if only the AI wasn't coded in "circus clowns" mode... that just made me depressed...

pedmangler · Nov 18, 2006, 11:28 PM // 23:28

I agree, farming is what keeps people playing. I still play diablo 2 from time to time. Not alot, but whenever I do, it's for one thing, to farm. I dont get why anet doesnt understand this.

korcan · Nov 18, 2006, 11:59 PM // 23:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by SirErnieMacGloop

Most posts:
Sid Soggybottom: 32
WasAGuest: 30
Narutoscryed: 27
lacasner: 26
Sidra: 15
birfoot: 14
Pudin Tame: 14
Trvth Jvstice: 13

wow, 35% of the posts on this thread are from 8 people.

if anet or any of anets reps havent posted in more "constructive" threads [ie. sardelac forums pertaining to an auction house, improved lfg system, etc] it doesnt really surprise me that they will not come anywhere near this thread.

i payed ~150$ for all 3 campaigns and i feel as though ive gotten every single pennies worth if not more over the last year and a bit. to break it down even further, ive logged ~1000 hrs since release so thats roughly 15 cents/hour of entertainment value from the games so far and im not even halfway through nf yet.

i am a bit bored but for having paid 15 cents for every hour that ive played up till now, i cant find it in me to complain too much.

ChildeOfMalkav · Nov 19, 2006, 01:43 AM // 01:43

35% of posts from 8 people doesnt surprise me. The doom and gloom people always like to exagarrate their numbers so it appears that the unhappy customers are more than it actually is and usually there's fighting between two sides to inflate the thread even further.

It's also no surprise that ANET won't respond to a thread like this. Why would they? I sure wouldnt. Half the posts are insulting. And what exactly should they say? "Yes, we are currently trying to fix your boredom. Please be paitent."

Trvth Jvstice · Nov 19, 2006, 02:03 AM // 02:03

It's pretty difficult to prove a point about whether the game is boring to someone or not. I personally accept that if someone says they're bored, then they are being honest. There's no way to prove otherwise.

I for one am not bored, but I like to encourage the ones that are bored to try other options. I am Not saying just take the game as it is without complaint. Keep letting Anet know that you're angry with the AI or game play as it is. I really don't think anyone here thinks you shouldn't complain. Some might feel that some of your points aren't valid or are exaggerated, but no one expects you to just take it and not say anything about it.

P.S. -Lacasner and others , inflammatory comments like yours will likely get this thread closed. Your comments will make others feel compelled to make an equally ugly reply. If we keep our comments on topic and not aimed at each other, we might be able to keep our little discussion going.

Gli · Nov 19, 2006, 04:00 AM // 04:00

I'm still not bored.

One thing I can't get my head around, and I'm serious about this: Why do people get so hung up over the new mob AI? The way I see it, we've traded one totally predictable AI for another totally predictable AI. Neither is easier or harder to beat than the other. They're just different. All it takes is some minor adjustments in your playing style and you hardly notice the difference. I'm sure I'd be more bored if it hadn't changed.

I'd really hate to think that it is only a matter of people being unwilling to adapt to change, but it's the only thing I can think of. I'd like to hear opinions of newcomers to the game about this. Do you guys think there's something wrong with the AI?

Trvth Jvstice · Nov 19, 2006, 04:07 AM // 04:07

Odd, a few people in this thread have said "if this thread is closed we will start another thread, If we are banned, we will join under a new account!"

Is this really That important to you? This! is your cause? This game is really so important that you want to create a rebellion? lol

Tomorrow morning, I want you to buy a newspaper and read it from cover to cover. Turn the television on and listen to your local news. Then come back to this forum and say you're gonna make a stand against Anet.

Master Fuhon · Nov 19, 2006, 04:30 AM // 04:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by SirErnieMacGloop

Bored: 70
Not Yet Bored: 5
Not Bored: 25
Not Sure: 76

Most posts:
Sid Soggybottom: 32
WasAGuest: 30
Narutoscryed: 27
lacasner: 26
Sidra: 15
birfoot: 14
Pudin Tame: 14
Trvth Jvstice: 13

I'm working towards being not bored, so those statistics are much appreciated.

What makes or breaks an activity to me is the attitudes of the people I'm with. Fun game with annoying people or annoying tasks with fun people to be around. I hope this isn't a form of people saying "Give me something I can do everyday without it becoming repetitive!", because that's how you can get bored in the first place. The other symptom of boredom comes from beating your head against a source of frustration (when it's extremely difficult).

I think there will always be a low motivation to killing tangled hordes of monsters to get anywhere in a game. Make a point about wanting incentives for doing this repitition, which will be about character customization instead of uber gear. I believe there have been some attempts at improving customization with recent updates (and holiday events). And farming is repetitive anyway. I hope people have a goal in mind when they start farming.... Otherwise, there isn't much more anyone can feed you to help your boredom. Damn trolls are eating everything!

Avarre · Nov 19, 2006, 05:31 AM // 05:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by Trvth Jvstice

Odd, a few people in this thread have said "if this thread is closed we will start another thread, If we are banned, we will join under a new account!"

Those people do realize we can read this stuff, right?

If I was a representative of Anet, I wouldn't bother with this thread, simply because for every decent post with good points, there is nearly a page of irrelevancy and nonsense.

WasAGuest · Nov 19, 2006, 05:47 AM // 05:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gli

I'm still not bored.

One thing I can't get my head around, and I'm serious about this: Why do people get so hung up over the new mob AI? The way I see it, we've traded one totally predictable AI for another totally predictable AI. Neither is easier or harder to beat than the other. They're just different. All it takes is some minor adjustments in your playing style and you hardly notice the difference. I'm sure I'd be more bored if it hadn't changed.

I'd really hate to think that it is only a matter of people being unwilling to adapt to change, but it's the only thing I can think of. I'd like to hear opinions of newcomers to the game about this. Do you guys think there's something wrong with the AI?

I must be really missing something then. Gli, I've followed your posts so I can expect a real answer; not a condesending one.

Adapt to what? If I find the new AI a complete push over, far easier then the previous since the AI favors running about like a circus clown; 100% predictable in that if there is a monk in the group... that's the primary target of the AI... what should I adapt too? I don't understand what exactly I can change to make the game suddenly fun, when the lack of fun is coming from the AI and lack of challenge and varity in mob actions.

Things I had tried to make a difference:

Take less skills; take different skills; take fewer heroes; take no heroes; head out solo; head out in pairs; only group with other players; only group with AI; strip all armor off and try to keep aggro off the monks; equip all sup runes to lower health to keep aggro off of monks (for some varity in battle); pulling up to four groups...

From what I can see, I've got nothing to adapt too. It's the change in the AI that has seriously killed the fun factor. There's no randomness in it... at all.

It's see monk, spike monk, run run run, see monk spike monk, run run run. Any interuption in that causes the AI to wig out and do either nothing or run for the hills.

Gli · Nov 19, 2006, 06:17 AM // 06:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by WasAGuest

I must be really missing something then. Gli, I've followed your posts so I can expect a real answer; not a condesending one.

Adapt to what? If I find the new AI a complete push over, far easier then the previous since the AI favors running about like a circus clown; 100% predictable in that if there is a monk in the group... that's the primary target of the AI... what should I adapt too? I don't understand what exactly I can change to make the game suddenly fun, when the lack of fun is coming from the AI and lack of challenge and varity in mob actions.

Well, the previous AI offered a similar lack of challenge didn't it? There was hardly any part of the pre-AI change game that couldn't be beat with one of a handful of tricks. So what you're saying is, you liked the previous predictable AI, and you don't like the new predictable AI? I can roll with that, but I don't understand how that change would make the game boring. (No more boring than it used to be anyway.)

Quote:

Originally Posted by WasAGuest

Things I had tried to make a difference:

Take less skills; take different skills; take fewer heroes; take no heroes; head out solo; head out in pairs; only group with other players; only group with AI; strip all armor off and try to keep aggro off the monks; equip all sup runes to lower health to keep aggro off of monks (for some varity in battle); pulling up to four groups...

Surely you're not suggesting the game has become any easier than it already used to be? Anyone serious about playing it never found anything remotely challenging about it to begin with, after a few months experience. Pull mob, kill mob was less boring to you then?

Quote:

Originally Posted by WasAGuest

From what I can see, I've got nothing to adapt too. It's the change in the AI that has seriously killed the fun factor. There's no randomness in it... at all.

I never noticed much randomness in the old AI either, except the AoE scattering.

Quote:

Originally Posted by WasAGuest

It's see monk, spike monk, run run run, see monk spike monk, run run run. Any interuption in that causes the AI to wig out and do either nothing or run for the hills.

As opposed to pull mob, kill mob, pull mob, kill mob. This game has always been based upon totally predictable patterns. Nothing changed on that account, the patterns have only become different patterns.

I do understand how you could be bored, but I really can't put my head around why you're blaming the AI.

Ninna · Nov 19, 2006, 07:29 AM // 07:29

everyone has different standards of whats fun for them in GW

for many GW farmers,
the previous AI was less irritating and required less hassle for resulting drops

same can be said for people that do "Runs" for other people

for people that used to enjoy both of these,
yes, they can still do it but its not as fun as it used to be

I never did farming or running - so the new AI didnt impact me and hence didnt lessen my enjoyment of the game, I even like the new AI

but I do understand the AI's adverse impact on other peoples fun
thus leading to their boredom

WasAGuest · Nov 19, 2006, 02:32 PM // 14:32

Ahh, thanks for answering. Yea, the AI is actually much easier than it was before; for me anyway. Maybe my way of playing was more aggressive than the pull mob situation that most players used. I set up and skilled for multiple group combat so a battle felt like a battle, not a game of tag.

Why do I blame the AI? Maybe this will get us all on the same page:

October 25th Update:

Improved Hero/Henchmen AI
Heroes and Henchmen now take into account Conditions and Exhaustion when choosing which skills to cast. They also consider attribute levels for stolen skills, and combo states for Assassin skills.
They have improved combo awareness for some important skill combinations.
They have improved knowledge of skills, so that they make smarter decisions about which skills to cast.
They manage their Energy better.
They are better at kiting opponents.
They are better at getting out and staying out of AoE damage spells.
They move in formation around their leader, with melee characters in front and ranged or casting characters in back.
They follow their leader whenever they haven’t been specifically directed to move to a point. The leader for Heroes is the player who owns the Hero, and the leader for henchmen is the party leader.
They also know how to have fun.

Improved Monster AI
Monsters no longer run from AoE damage when they are very healthy, or when they think they’re very close to killing their opponent.
Melee monsters are more intelligent about keeping themselves spread out, so that they don’t put themselves into a position where they’re highly susceptible to AoE attacks.

Now, since then we have no updates on "fixes" and changes to AI. However; Gaile confirms changes were made to a single targeting bug which made mobs "randomly" choose targets.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gaile

Here are a couple of updates:

Info directly from Mike O'Brien, who leads the design team, and who would be an excellent source for information about "who updated what, and when, and in what way,"
The monster AI targeting has used a system which remained unchanged from the release of Prophecies (04/28/05) until just prior to release of Nightfall, specifically 10/25/06.
On 10/25/06, we accidentially introduced a bug which made monsters choose targets almost at random.
On 10/31/06, we fixed that bug, and now the AI targeting system once again works the same way it has ever since the release of Prophecies.
The key AI change on 10/25/06 that some players are finding somewhat annoying is the fact that melee monsters now back off. That is new; that is intended; that won't be changing. But honestly, the manner in which monsters choose targets, which seems to be the major complaint in forum threads, has not changed since the release of Prophecies (aside from that brief period when the bug was in place).

Never saw complaints about the targeting system; though saw complaints on the "backing off", "Perma-lock aggro", and the "insta-monk aggro". So, from we see, Anet wasn't even looking at the right posts and was assuming as many players even here were doing, that the complaints were about farmers having a hard time.

This post also says the AI is now back to the Prophesies style targeting system. Which I'm pretty sure we can all agree, this isn't true. But, if Anet says it is, meaning they've put the code back (from the Oct 25th update) like they say; I smell a bug. And that bug causes other wierdness and strange effects that so many others in so many other forums are posting about. Gaile confirms the presence of issues here:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gaile

I have sent a note to check with the designers about the issues that you've reported. I don't have a response yet (it is the weekend now, after all) but I've asked for reassurance that all changes are intended or, if not, for an estimated timeline of when those things that are not functioning properly might be back on track.

I know we made changes to the AI, and there was a period from October 25 to the 31 when the AI was not functioning as planned. Some of the things that people mention have not changed since Prophecies. But obviously some things have.

We'll do a check on the matter and give you an update as soon as one is possible.

and here:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gaile

Don't worry, the designers know about this thread, and other similar threads. They'll appraise the comments, the reports, and the movie and I'll share their comments after they've had time to do all that. It's Friday, and they've been swamped with other issues, but I know they'll attend to this soon.

Thanks for your patience.

That was over a week ago. So the AI is bugged/ not working as intended/ whatever you want to call it; that's where and why I blame the AI changes and why I keep waiting for them to change it to a working and "fun" version.

Sidra · Nov 19, 2006, 03:33 PM // 15:33

I'll put all my points into a list. This is actually an extremely long reply to WasAGuest, or maybe just commentary, since I agree with him wholeheartedly.

A. They also know how to have fun. I just had to comment on that, seeing as to how it's probably the stupidest thing I've heard all day. Where is the use in putting that on the page?

B. The targeting system isn't the same as prophecies at all. I might get some random caster on me (Dervish) while 4 melee's go for my monk and/or ranger hero 0.o and their monk just stands there in the back healing. Then (this is based on corsairs), I'll go for THEIR monk, which isn't protected at all, good job ANet *rolls eyes*, and it will start running. And running. And healing itself, and running, and healing, and running, until the dumb piece of crap runs right into my other henchies/heroes, and gets owned, because even while attempting to "kite" me, it has absolutely NO idea what it's doing.

C. I've only ever seen complaints that the AI are panzies. Although, I've never once seen any mob back off. They all just stay there till they die. They might switch targets eventually, but they just sit there taking heat. They also seem to have near unlimited energy.

D. Complaints about the targeting system? What? Where are these? I've never heard anyone say anything about it. Maybe some people on GWOnline actually care about that, but nobody here seems to.

E. It's comments like these that make me more and more skeptical when playing the game, wondering how long I'll stay or if I'll ever buy again. It's just a very, very strange way for ANet to deal with complaints and comments on the AI. Mike O'Brien even seems a little pissed off, which isn't really a good way to attract people/be charismatic. Hurm.

And no, this is not an off topic post, because some of you will say it is. I'm commenting on one of the biggest facets of my cumulative gem of complaints/issues. Blargh.

Hell Marauder · Nov 19, 2006, 03:40 PM // 15:40

This game is called Guild "Wars", not Guild "Farm" or Guild "World". The environment in GW is minimally interactive, but serves its purpose because the core of this game is competition, not fighting AI collecting loots. You're supposed to build up/become familiar with your pve characters and bring them to arenas to fight with others. It's not dev's problems if you aren't playing the way they intended and feel bored. Repeating missions is like driving your beloved car or walking your pet on a beaten/familiar path, so it shouldn't be too boring if you're truely attached to your pve toons. As for ai, just when did any online game company care about ai? We should be glad that Anet is at least working on it.

Sidra · Nov 19, 2006, 04:06 PM // 16:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hell Marauder

This game is called Guild "Wars", not Guild "Farm" or Guild "World". The environment in GW is minimally interactive, but serves its purpose because the core of this game is competition, not fighting AI collecting loots. You're supposed to build up/become familiar with your pve characters and bring them to arenas to fight with others. It's not dev's problems if you aren't playing the way they intended and feel bored. Repeating missions is like driving your beloved car or walking your pet on a beaten/familiar path, so it shouldn't be too boring if you're truely attached to your pve toons. As for ai, just when did any online game company care about ai? We should be glad that Anet is at least working on it.

They released a PVP edition for a reason. "PvP"ers don't like PvE. Most of them probably hate it, judging by some of the comments I get or see when I randomly attempt to get into it. I'd much prefer it if they DIDN'T give a flying shit about AI, because that would be much better for us. If they didn't intend for us to farm, or explore, or do anything like that, then why do we even have a PvE element to the game? I can't stand PvP. Going PvP would probably make me quit even faster. In general, I love PvE. Now, it's been changed for the worse (PvP-focused, AI simulation wise) and I don't like it. Don't tell me that I'm playing the game wrong because I enjoy roleplaying more than getting called things that would normally get people arrested and being forced to interact with highly aggressive, unintelligent idiots who would like nothing better then to "pwn me" and be "leet lololol". The name of a game means nothing. Everquest. Why is it called Everquest? Probably because it sounded role-play-ey and the company liked it. Warcraft. Warcraft? Sounds medeival, fantasy-like, again- role-play-ey. Lineage. Same thing. Guild Wars? Yep. Count that one in too. The Guild Wars play a major part in the original game's lore. If the game were intended to be a PvP oriented endgame, which it seems like its leaning more towards, then the PvE elements of it would have caught interest for around a month during prophecies, and then everybody would be filling up the RA like it was a dehydrated cell and we were the hypotonic solution on the outside of it. The whole "gain 10,000" Luxon/Kurzick faction thing was a bit iffy, but you could get that from the quests, at least. Now, ANet seems to be saying "No. PVP now!", and it's really creeping me out.

lacasner · Nov 19, 2006, 04:11 PM // 16:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ninna

everyone has different standards of whats fun for them in GW

for many GW farmers,
the previous AI was less irritating and required less hassle for resulting drops

same can be said for people that do "Runs" for other people

for people that used to enjoy both of these,
yes, they can still do it but its not as fun as it used to be

I never did farming or running - so the new AI didnt impact me and hence didnt lessen my enjoyment of the game, I even like the new AI

but I do understand the AI's adverse impact on other peoples fun
thus leading to their boredom

Really, the AI is a fairly minor thing that is leading to boredome, it is not part of the main causes.

Trakata · Nov 19, 2006, 05:13 PM // 17:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sidra

They released a PVP edition for a reason. "PvP"ers don't like PvE. Most of them probably hate it, judging by some of the comments I get or see when I randomly attempt to get into it. I'd much prefer it if they DIDN'T give a flying shit about AI, because that would be much better for us. If they didn't intend for us to farm, or explore, or do anything like that, then why do we even have a PvE element to the game? I can't stand PvP. Going PvP would probably make me quit even faster. In general, I love PvE. Now, it's been changed for the worse (PvP-focused, AI simulation wise) and I don't like it. Don't tell me that I'm playing the game wrong because I enjoy roleplaying more than getting called things that would normally get people arrested and being forced to interact with highly aggressive, unintelligent idiots who would like nothing better then to "pwn me" and be "leet lololol". The name of a game means nothing. Everquest. Why is it called Everquest? Probably because it sounded role-play-ey and the company liked it. Warcraft. Warcraft? Sounds medeival, fantasy-like, again- role-play-ey. Lineage. Same thing. Guild Wars? Yep. Count that one in too. The Guild Wars play a major part in the original game's lore. If the game were intended to be a PvP oriented endgame, which it seems like its leaning more towards, then the PvE elements of it would have caught interest for around a month during prophecies, and then everybody would be filling up the RA like it was a dehydrated cell and we were the hypotonic solution on the outside of it. The whole "gain 10,000" Luxon/Kurzick faction thing was a bit iffy, but you could get that from the quests, at least. Now, ANet seems to be saying "No. PVP now!", and it's really creeping me out.

Winner.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hell Marauder

This game is called Guild "Wars", not Guild "Farm"

Also, someone please explain to me what the difference between farming and PvP is, other than the prescence of other humans. Because honest to god, all it is is a big farming operation to me, to get more Guild rank or more fame or more Faction.